The Knockdown Power of Smaller Lines

Great article and video. Indeed so many are calling for 2 1/2″ lines on fires like this when a properly applied stream of water is what is needed. It is also important to remember that we are the only ones using high volume/low pressure lines to extinguish fires. As much as the industry is pushing new and exciting toys and devices, as you mention and the video proves, a well trained team with a fair amount of water can put out large amounts of fire, when done properly.
1000 GPM on this fire from outside and it will never go out. I wonder how many of your readers saw the team advance and shrieked that they were not crawling or shooting the fire above them without realizing the ceiling was not on fire, everything below it was.
Good stuff.
HM

Great article and video. Indeed so many are calling for 2 1/2″ lines on fires like this when a properly applied stream of water is what is needed. It is also important to remember that we are the only ones using high volume/low pressure lines to extinguish fires. As much as the industry is pushing new and exciting toys and devices, as you mention and the video proves, a well trained team with a fair amount of water can put out large amounts of fire, when done properly.
1000 GPM on this fire from outside and it will never go out. I wonder how many of your readers saw the team advance and shrieked that they were not crawling or shooting the fire above them without realizing the ceiling was not on fire, everything below it was.
Good stuff.
HM

The video shows that the handline crew of what looked like three firemen was able to achieve a knockdown in seconds I think a good alternative would have been to hit it from a stationary position from the outside with a 250 gpm blast from any of the handlines available, including an 1-3/4″ with one fireman. The structure was fully involved with nothing to save inside so why the risk? A knockdown from the outside could probably have been accomplished just as fast

Nick, I think you are on the right track but you neede to talk about the flows that are capable for a big knockdown 1-3/4″ line..

Paul,

Thanks for your thoughts, but can you be sure from that view of the
conditions on Side C? What about a rear bedroom?

My past experiences with finding viable victims in what would seem
“unteneable” conditions has taught me to very cautious about making
assumptions. In my opinion if we have the resources and and the
structure's stability supports it, we must attack the fire aggressively.

Further, if we stuck a line in the window would that knock down all
the fire, or just blow it around and knock one room? We have to
remember that the walls the separate the interior into rooms will also
inhibit stream penetration from one room to another – we have to move
around.

——————————————
Nicholas A. Martin
VP – Traditions Training, LLC
(610) 637-8315
*Sent from my wireless device*

A 1.75 hand line will flow ” Big Water” with the right nozzle and pressure. A 15/16 smooth bore flows 185 gpm at 50 psi, boost it up to 75 psi at the tip and you are well over 200 gpm. A good combination fog/straight stream nozzle thats 175 gpm at 50 psi will do the same ,well over 200gpm at 75 psi. Low pressure works. Remember the nozzle pressure is whats need ed at the tip not the pump panel. Depending on the hose length and brand you could have 100psi friction loss or more. Too many 100psi automatic nozzles are being under pumped thus not delivering peak flow. The stream looks great but if a 100psi automatic is only getting 50 psi you get half the water. Put a flowmeter on your lines and check. The numbers dont lie.
The low pressure line needs a lot less manpower as well. And I agree put those pistol grips in dumpster!!!!!

Very good questions to consider here… I do not want to get a whole big bru ha started on what is best or better or we use this cause we make 5 million fires a year, or that old song and dance… I just want to say take a look at how much your nozzles are actually flowing at the tip, based on your normal pump pressure you would use at a fire.

No matter what size line you are using everyone needs to do this test. GPM's and BTU's is basicly what it comes down to.

Given the fact everyone is riding short and do more with less, getting the line in service and water on the seat of the fire as quick as we can with as much water and “punch” as two guys can handle safely, is paramont.

We have been using this nozzle with very good success. http://www.1ststriketech.com/

Most of these nozzles will flow close to or over 300 gpm from an 1.75″, while maintaining excellent manuverability with a nozzle psi of around 50 psi. at around 150 psi pump pressure, 200' line.

Just something to ponder or put in your toolbox…

Be careful.

We went from 1-3/4″ handlines to 2″ around ten years ago, and we've had virtually zero regrets. The 2″ lines are a great compromise for an understaffed (volunteer) department such as ours. Two interior firefighters can comfortably deploy and maneuver a 2″ line with a 50psi nozzle. Both our engines are set up with two 2″ crosslays, one with a smoothbore and one with an automatic, and a 2-1/2″ crosslay with an automatic. The smoothbore is generally pulled first for structural fires.

We found with calculations and flow meters that we can easily flow over 220gpm through either of these combinations, at a pressure that's manageable for two personnel with ease, and one in a pinch (i.e., to protect an exposure, or at the doorway to cover the first line's egress). I don't think I'd go back to 1-3/4″ lines for the difference of a few pounds per length.

I appreciate everyone's comments so far, but here's a thought I really wanted to get everyone's thoughts on:

It's not only the GPM's – but where you get them. You can be flowing a bazillion gallons-per-minue, but if you can't maneuver your line around and get to the seat of the fire, it's all worth ZERO.

Thoughts?

-Nick

These guys are lucky no one was hurt this is no way to attack a fire like this, walking through flames to get to the seat of the fire is not a good pratice, plus no back up line, no regard for floor conditions they could have ended up in the basement. I would not have this crew working for me and I have 42 years in the fire service professional and volunteer the lead guy never even pulled his chin strap tight if it comes off inside he will be in big trouble. Promote the use of small hand lines I am sure there are things we could do better but do not show video where people are doing stupid things. You are using this video to train our fire fighters and this kind of action is not reccomended for the safety of our members.

The amount of aggresion on the nozzle plays a large part. The knock down in the video was a great job except leaving the porch burning behind them. It did not stay burning long but it could have been long enough to burn the line in two. This is why I teach to leave a fog nozzle set to a straight stream. Had that been my nozzle work on that video as soon as I got in line with the door I would have hitting the front porch as I moved in. Don't leave your slack puller working in fire.
You will always put out more fire faster with a smaller line IF you are packing enough GPM to over come the BTUs.
The problem with fog nozzles is they are not used to their full function. Most people do not adjust the pattern during the attack/advance.
Years ago when I was a volunteer Officer someone ask me one of those “What line should we pull for a XYZ type fire?” My reply was this, “I really don't care what line you pull first. But what I do not want to see is a door with a redline on the bottom, 1 3/4 on top of that and a 2 1/2 holding them down with deckguns and ladder pipes over them.”
Line size and nozzle selection should be based on YOUR department training and capabilites in relation to your STAFFING/TRAINING/FIREGROUND EXPIERENCE. You should look to see if you can be better but, if what you are doing is not broken, don't fix it!

Excellent points! And I totally agree with your straight stream
approach as well.

You can hardly ever find a video that shows everything ideally, but
often it's the little differences (such as these) that really incite
the good discussion.

——————————————
Nicholas A. Martin
VP – Traditions Training, LLC
(610) 637-8315
*Sent from my wireless device*

The amount of aggresion on the nozzle plays a large part. The knock down in the video was a great job except leaving the porch burning behind them. It did not stay burning long but it could have been long enough to burn the line in two. This is why I teach to leave a fog nozzle set to a straight stream. Had that been my nozzle work on that video as soon as I got in line with the door I would have hitting the front porch as I moved in. Don't leave your slack puller working in fire.
You will always put out more fire faster with a smaller line IF you are packing enough GPM to over come the BTUs.
The problem with fog nozzles is they are not used to their full function. Most people do not adjust the pattern during the attack/advance.
Years ago when I was a volunteer Officer someone ask me one of those “What line should we pull for a XYZ type fire?” My reply was this, “I really don't care what line you pull first. But what I do not want to see is a door with a redline on the bottom, 1 3/4 on top of that and a 2 1/2 holding them down with deckguns and ladder pipes over them.”
Line size and nozzle selection should be based on YOUR department training and capabilites in relation to your STAFFING/TRAINING/FIREGROUND EXPIERENCE. You should look to see if you can be better but, if what you are doing is not broken, don't fix it!

Excellent points! And I totally agree with your straight stream
approach as well.

You can hardly ever find a video that shows everything ideally, but
often it's the little differences (such as these) that really incite
the good discussion.

——————————————
Nicholas A. Martin
VP – Traditions Training, LLC
(610) 637-8315
*Sent from my wireless device*

With 1.5“ and 1.75“ lines flowing anywhere from 125 gpm to 300 gpm (according to pumpercaptain) and two men being able to advance them quickly and effectively, why not put two or three of them in service quickly instead of trying to haul around a 2.5“ line? I know a lot of this question and answer has to do with where you are and how fast back up arrives, but I have never seen a company lead off with a two and a half on any structure they were going to advance on. For the simple fact that you cant advance that line. I think the video shown does two things for us. It shows that what is showing can be misleading. Just because there is fire coming from a few windows does not mean that the structure is fully involved. As nick stated houses are a bunch of little compartments. When you figure the fire flow out for a fully involved room of a house that size you get 48 gpm needed to extinguish it, and thats being generous. So you would look very foolish sitting out front with your line capable of flowing 500 gpm not putting a simple room or two out because you were unable to put the water where it needs to be, which is the second thing it shows. Properly applied water rapidly extinguishing a fire. As nick stated, a 30 degree or narrower fog being “worked” will do wonders and in a hurry.

I think that what this discussion comes down to is your crew’s ability to properly size up a fire scene, and then properly place the proper hand line in the proper position to extinguish or confine the bulk of the fire.
There is no set standard that will make pulling any one line for one certain type of fire the right decision every time. A properly pumped, positioned and aggressively moved small diameter hand line will extinguish a very large amount of fire in a short period of time, using a minimal amount of manpower and water. Also remember that a water can will extinguish or confine a larger amount of fire than most people think.
I believe that you should have your engines set up to allow you different options based upon your size up. We have our engines set up to allow for the option of 5 different 1 3/4” hand lines to allow crews to rapidly place an initial and back up hand line in service to quickly extinguish the main fire and stop any extension to the exposure floors or building. We also have the option of a 2 1/2” hand line or a step gun to attack a large fire, or protect exposures if necessary.
In order to understand the ability of your hand lines you need to flow test and know the proper pump pressure to achieve your desired GPM. You also need to have an idea of that lines ability based on either past fire experiences or through hands on training.
I am a firm believer that a rapid and aggressively placed small diameter hand line will handle 95% of the fires we encounter. This all comes back to the training and ability of your crew. The same goes for the nozzles you choose on your hand lines. It doesn’t matter whether it is a fog or solid bore nozzle. The training and ability of the engine crew will make the determination on the extinguishment of the fire.

So at the end of the day get out and learn your companies capabilties.

Very well said, Win – agreed on all points!

——————————————
Nicholas A. Martin
VP – Traditions Training, LLC
(610) 637-8315
*Sent from my wireless device*

With 1.5“ and 1.75“ lines flowing anywhere from 125 gpm to 300 gpm (according to pumpercaptain) and two men being able to advance them quickly and effectively, why not put two or three of them in service quickly instead of trying to haul around a 2.5“ line? I know a lot of this question and answer has to do with where you are and how fast back up arrives, but I have never seen a company lead off with a two and a half on any structure they were going to advance on. For the simple fact that you cant advance that line. I think the video shown does two things for us. It shows that what is showing can be misleading. Just because there is fire coming from a few windows does not mean that the structure is fully involved. As nick stated houses are a bunch of little compartments. When you figure the fire flow out for a fully involved room of a house that size you get 48 gpm needed to extinguish it, and thats being generous. So you would look very foolish sitting out front with your line capable of flowing 500 gpm not putting a simple room or two out because you were unable to put the water where it needs to be, which is the second thing it shows. Properly applied water rapidly extinguishing a fire. As nick stated, a 30 degree or narrower fog being “worked” will do wonders and in a hurry.

I want those guy's on my Company! These obviously are well trained, motivated Firefighters. I have made lots of fires where I work, and I definately wouldn't want to take a 2 1/2 inch line in any fire! A 2 1/2 inch line has it's place; water supply, exposure, spaghetti, and etc., but not in a structure fire. It's hard enough to maneuver a 1 3/4 inch line with a Chief nozzle on it. So many times a Driver will pump too much pressure as it is, and you can't hardly bend the line. You must attack a fire to put it out, and attacking is a challenging feat for some. There is no way I would have sat in the front yard of this small structure, and let it burn to the ground. That's exactly what would have happened with a 2 1/2, or even two 2 1/2's. You can be sure these Firefighters knew there wasn't a basement in this structure.

I would love to have a crew that works like that! Nice video.

Memphis, Tn.

While this does appear to be effective in the above video, I am not a fan. A narrow fog and lower gpm handline is a dangerous combo. In this case we have a well ventilated structure that helps prevents the steam from coming back on the firefighters, and helps prevent any thermal inversion of this post flashover compartment. Now lets look at the size of the compartment, this is a small home by today’s standards, and the max fire load is going to be low. By advocating a smaller handline, even when a structure is well involved with fire, is asking for trouble. Lets look at McMansions, very large, open compartments that have little to impede fire spread. If you factor in newer building construction, choosing a lower flow handline will not only be ineffective, it could be deadly. There have been several recent examples of rapid flame spread trapping firefighters causing injury and death in Prince William, Fairfax and Loudoun. The use of a larger handline is in response to changes in fire behavior, building construction, and fire incidents (both fatal and near misses). The 2.5 handline is not a fade, who really wants to man handle this line around. It is a response to the above changes. I look at an organization like yours to work on training firefighters to manage these larger hanline and not simply poo poo them. A well-trained engine crew can place an effect large caliber handline in service in the same amount of time as a smaller preconnect.

Thanks for your analysis Bart. I would not agree that just because of the home's size that it has a small fire load. Maybe it does – but I have seen many similar looking houses have terrible pack-rat / Collyer's mansion styles conditions. They have been some of the hottest fires I've been to and some of the most difficult due to their cramped size and clutter.

Not to analyze any particular incidents, but when looking at incidence of rapid flame spread we have to ask ourselves – did that occur because we weren't getting ANY water on the fire? Because we had a crew of 3 trying to manipulate a 2.5″ handline thru a furnished single-family dwelling? Maybe yes, maybe no – but it's a question we should ask. Which came first – the chicken or the egg?

I'm also not sure I can agree that an equal sized crew can place a larger handline in service in the same amount of time as a smaller line. While we do cover a variety of techniques to manuever a 2.5″ line as an offensive line, that does not mean I think that we should be pulling 2.5″ attack lines on all our house fires. When a larger line is needed, many departments team up 2 engine companies to advance one line – a smart move. Every corner or obstacle that this line passes will need a FF at it, pulling the line along.

If the line isn't moving, we're sitting still. And if we're sitting still, we're losing.

If we are going to go about an offensive attack it MUST be done aggressively, otherwise we are setting ourselves up for tragedy. And to aggressively manage a large line, such as a 2.5″, additional manpower will be needed. If a 2.5″ line is definitely dictated by an appropriate size-up, and the resources are not there to advance it in an offensive manner properly and effectively, perhaps we would need to consider a defensive approach until the appropriate resources can be assembled.

Thanks,
-Nick

Great article and great comments. Not to beat a dead horse but training is where it all starts, continous training. We ride 3-man Engines at work and putting a 2 1/2″ into play does take time and it would more than likely be stationary. Can it be moved, yes but like everyone has said, it takes man power and training. Unfortunately, the majority of our company officers don't like the big line due to the weight so we pull the 1 3/4″ with our adjustable gallonage combination nozzle about 95% of the time. If pulled right, flaked out right, PUMPED right (correct pdp), correct pattern (I believe in the straight stream) and you hit the fire right, the 1 3/4″ has a great punch. Again, all this comes with consistent/quality training and knowing when to pull the 1 3/4″ or the 2 1/2″ line. Great article and great comments again. Keep up the awesome work, I'm personally getting information for my “tool box”.

Larry

Thanks for your analysis Bart. I would not agree that just because of the home's size that it has a small fire load. Maybe it does – but I have seen many similar looking houses have terrible pack-rat / Collyer's mansion styles conditions. They have been some of the hottest fires I've been to and some of the most difficult due to their cramped size and clutter.

Not to analyze any particular incidents, but when looking at incidence of rapid flame spread we have to ask ourselves – did that occur because we weren't getting ANY water on the fire? Because we had a crew of 3 trying to manipulate a 2.5″ handline thru a furnished single-family dwelling? Maybe yes, maybe no – but it's a question we should ask. Which came first – the chicken or the egg?

I'm also not sure I can agree that an equal sized crew can place a larger handline in service in the same amount of time as a smaller line. While we do cover a variety of techniques to manuever a 2.5″ line as an offensive line, that does not mean I think that we should be pulling 2.5″ attack lines on all our house fires. When a larger line is needed, many departments team up 2 engine companies to advance one line – a smart move. Every corner or obstacle that this line passes will need a FF at it, pulling the line along.

If the line isn't moving, we're sitting still. And if we're sitting still, we're losing.

If we are going to go about an offensive attack it MUST be done aggressively, otherwise we are setting ourselves up for tragedy. And to aggressively manage a large line, such as a 2.5″, additional manpower will be needed. If a 2.5″ line is definitely dictated by an appropriate size-up, and the resources are not there to advance it in an offensive manner properly and effectively, perhaps we would need to consider a defensive approach until the appropriate resources can be assembled.

Thanks,
-Nick

Great article and great comments. Not to beat a dead horse but training is where it all starts, continous training. We ride 3-man Engines at work and putting a 2 1/2″ into play does take time and it would more than likely be stationary. Can it be moved, yes but like everyone has said, it takes man power and training. Unfortunately, the majority of our company officers don't like the big line due to the weight so we pull the 1 3/4″ with our adjustable gallonage combination nozzle about 95% of the time. If pulled right, flaked out right, PUMPED right (correct pdp), correct pattern (I believe in the straight stream) and you hit the fire right, the 1 3/4″ has a great punch. Again, all this comes with consistent/quality training and knowing when to pull the 1 3/4″ or the 2 1/2″ line. Great article and great comments again. Keep up the awesome work, I'm personally getting information for my “tool box”.

Larry

in the cases in loudon, fairfax and prince william you are talking about fires that were already well advanced and over 4,000 sq ft. with fires on multiple levels. No one 2 1/2 inch line could have done anything for those fires. and lugging around a 2 1/2 trying to rapidly move it up and down steps trying to protect yourself on the way out or if something bad happened isn`t gonna happen either. To me, if its a house and your leading with the 2 1/2 then its gonna be a defensive knock down then switching to an offensive mode with smaller lines anyway.

Wow alot of info already. I do think alot of it depends on were you are from and the type of fires you are going to. That being said pulling another line is not as simple as it seems. A simple fact remains that if a fire requires a GPM flow greater than that of an 1 3/4, if you deploy that line then you will not put the fire out you will simply burn it down with style.

It is very possible to deploy and advance a 2 1/2 with only 2 firefighters, training and technique are the key.First off you have to tip it right smooth bore is the only way to go since it lowers the NP to 50 PSI. Second you have to utilize the reach of the stream, with is substantially greater than that of the 1 3/4. Third everyone on the line attaches a peice of webbing to the line to help with advancement. Fourth communication is key when you are opening the line up tell them that way then can pin it to the ground and let the ground absorb the friction instead of you, when you want to advance a simple ready to move command lets them know to get ready, then follow that up with the move command so that it happens in concert. I think I have some pics so I will send them along when I find them. This is a practice that we rountinely employ in my FD daily. Is it harder than the 1 3/4 to manuver? Yes, but are we about whats easier or whats right. With todays fuel packages being what they are the fire flow as to be amped up as well.

On monday we ran a fire that we determined ot need big lines, it was a fully involved hobby shop with unknown contents inside. The engine company was down to driver and officer becuase the firefighter had to ride in with the medic for a critical pt. Our 2 man engine company deployed a 300 foot leader line and added a blitz fire to the end of that, then deployed a 200 foot 2 1/2 inch hand line. Needless to say this fire went out right now. When the other companies arrived the only thing wee needed from them was a drink of water and a break. I use this as the engine company example fo the OVM videos on here. If you want to accomplish it then you will do it….if your always looking for whats easier then you will only do whats easier.

One last thing about fog streams, I understand completly that they absorb heat better. But remember fog streams were invented by the navy and intended to suppress fires in compartments with no life hazard. They were never intended to be used in comparments with people in them. Essentially any viable victims located in any room you use a fog pattern in are now dead either due to skin burns, or if they are breathing the airway burns. Fog streams are one of the most understood and misused tactics in the fire service.

Great discussion

1. I agree that a 2.5 is not the handline of choice for a compartmentalized fire, contained to a room or two.
2. While the size of the structure does not always dictate the amount of material inside, we must often size-up a building by its exterior dimensions. If I pull up to a 900 sq ft bungalow the fire load will generally be less than a 3500+ home, and hoarders can be found in any size home.
3. As far as crew size and the ability to move and position large handline, this past Monday, we had a fire that was out of the compartment. It required large gpm flow. With three companies of three persons each, we placed two 3″ (300' and 200') leaderlines in service, one supplying a 2.5 and the other to a blitz fire. Both went into service, rapidly, and simultaneously (okay a few seconds apart).
4. About maneuverability, what you lose because of weight you gain with punch. A 2.5 will reach much further into a structure. I will a agree that in a small compartmentalized homes the 2.5 will be very difficult to move around conners. However, if the fire is out the box in a 4500 sq ft, open floor plan McMansion, it will serve you very well. You do not have to go to the heart of the enemy and fight your way out when you have a cruise missile that can hit from the safety of a doorway.

Finally, I am very much in favor of aggressive interior fire attack, saving people property, and using the correct handline to accomplish this mission. However, do not say a 2.5 is a fad or we are using it just to use it. There is real science and case studies to back-up its use.

Years ago, we wanted to increase our water flow and at the same time reduce the back pressure. In conjunction with one of the major nozzle manufacturers, we took two of our 2 1/2″ fog nozzles, replaced the couplings with 1 1/2 “, pumped the 1 3/4″ line at 70 PSI nozzle pressure. Using a flow meter, we determined that we were flowing about 220 GPM. Over the years, we were able to purchase additional 2 1/2″ nozzles and replaced all of our nozzles on both our front line apparatus and reserve pumper. With only three Firefighters on the apparatus, this method allowed us manuverbility of the line and almost 100 GPM flow increase.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaWX4YjRCwU

This video was recently posted on The Bravest Online, and shows just how ineffective the wrong hose stream can be. Large compartment, open floor plan and well involved fire = 2.5 handline.

I am going to agree with Nick on the fact that a home’s size has nothing to do with the fire conditions that are occurring in it. He mentions the Collier Mansion conditions that can be found in any size home that will greatly add to the fire load no matter the size of the structure.

The newer “McMansions” while large are still a compartmented structure which in itself does not lead to rapid fire spread. Their construction features, large open foyers and large and often numerous open unenclosed stairwells, however do lead to rapid smoke spread throughout the residence which may lead some to thinking the fire is greater in size then it actually is. Also in the economy today the fire load in these “McMansion” type structures can be much smaller than anticipated. I was in a fire in one of these structures a few weeks ago. I couldn’t see my hand in front of my face on the upstairs while searching for extension. The fire was held to one room on the first floor and was extinguished with about 10 seconds of water application. We did however have two 1 ¾” lines rapidly through the front door to protect any fire spread up the large open interior stairs that are found in these types of structures. If we had chosen a larger line it would have most likely taken both engine crews to advance to the seat of the fire, leaving no one to search or check for extension above.

The examples of the rapid fire spread in the incidents in Prince William and Loudoun mentioned previously also lead back to not properly sizing up a fire building. It is imperative that we view all sides of the structure early in the incident. Hopefully this is accomplished by the first arriving crew and if not by one arriving very shortly after. A view of the Charlie side in these incidents would have most likely shown the location of the fire, the size of the fire, and if not that, the potential for the rapid fire spread due to the vinyl siding which was found and contributed to the rapid fire spread on all of these incidents. Thought may have been given to darken down the exterior fire prior to entering the structure. There was also the possibility of people trapped in these structures which sometimes impairs our judgment on the fire ground.

Anyway back to the 2 ½” vs. 1 ¾”. In any of those situations mentioned previously our actions would be hampered if we had chosen to pull the 2 ½” over the smaller diameter hand line. If we had to stretch the line to the rear to extinguish a vinyl siding or outside fire involving the structure and chose the larger line we are going to have a great deal of difficulty getting back to the front door to advance through the structure. Also if we stretch that larger line with the report of people trapped we will be longer in getting our line in position to protect them or the search team.

Now don’t get me wrong, I think that the 2 ½” line has its place on the fire ground. I believe that it can be put in service and moved through a structure and operated with 3 people. The fire scene where it works is one that is in an open uncompartment building. A row of stores, a hardware store or a large “box store” type building. Also on defensive fires or where exposure protection is necessary. These are the types of fires we should be using this line on. Not on fires where we did a poor size up or where our training or lack of experience does not allow us to know our abilities.

Once again this all goes back to your crew’s ability to properly size up the fire scene and their ability to properly place the proper hand line in the proper position to extinguish or confine the bulk of the fire.

I WOULD LIKE TO COMPLIMENT EVERYBODY ON HOW CONSTRUCTIVE THIS IS!! I really get tired of those forums that slam people and do not know all the facts.

Adaptability and common sense figure into this as well. On the whole crew's part not just the Officer. Breaking news, all our firefighters are not the same size or have the same strength! On the first day of the tour I can pump 180 psi on 200 feet of 1 3/4 and the crew be just fine and kicking butt. On day two of the tour I have totally different sized firefighters and if I pump 180 psi the only butt kicking that is going to be going on is the line kicking the crew's butt. Anyone who is using 100 psi nozzles should have an attack pressure and a “it's knocked down” pressure. You simply do not need 180 gallons a minute to over haul or your people to put out that kind of effort.

Common sense comes in when looking at different tactics, explore the whole tactic.
“Hey Engine X is pumping 200 PSI on a 200 footer” “Really, that fire we made with them the other night went out quick. Let's pump that too” Then the first time the company tries it they have bad results. Did they talk to the other company and ask them “What technique do you use to advance with that? Do you use an automatic nozzle or select gallonage?”

You have to be careful and take some ownership in what you put out there.I remember seeing a picture of someone with like a 2 1/2 inch smoothbore tip on piece of 4 inch hose. This was resting on a knee developing a very nice stream. I am glad it was in a picture because if I seen it on the fireground I would have been getting out of the way. With the sun and planets in alingment all was good. Let that get loose on a street full of firefighters and apparatus and you will be calling for more ambulances!

If you called me on the phone from your 2 engine 1 truck on duty staffed department and ask “What line do you take up on a highrise?” The answer is 2 1/2 and smooth bore. If you say “Thank you” and hang up you will not find that we get 6 Engines and 4 Truck on highrise box and we are going to commit 2 engine companies to that one line. The same with our court yard lay. But if you do not set your crosslays up with a short “pigtail” an your people have to break your crosslay loose up on top of the engine it might not be quite as fast and handy. We disconnect one coupling standing on the street and slide the whole crosslay off and you go to the water thief.

I see some of the right coast departments are still attacking off the hose bed rather than crosslays. Do you have less trouble with Engines “parking in the truck's spot” coming off the back than the side?

I'd like to echo the few comments that compliment the productive and thoughtful discussion on an important topic. There have been a lot of ideas thrown around and I think we're all better off from having read and thought through everyone's point of view. I know I don't consider myself to have “THE” answer, I don't think there is one. I think the right choice for every fire is a meaningful size-up and a decision based on that information with your resources, crew, and objective in mind.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts and I hope everyone will continue to come back and offer their thoughts and insights on all the topics we discuss here.

-Nick

1.75″ handline with smoothbore or adjustable gallonage nozzle can flow a good slug of water and can be very mobile.

Sorry, but that video does more injustice for safety then it does supporting small diameter handlines. Risk vs benefit right? A lot was being risked for what? No viable life and any contants were done by heat and smoke. Not good.

I'd like to echo the few comments that compliment the productive and thoughtful discussion on an important topic. There have been a lot of ideas thrown around and I think we're all better off from having read and thought through everyone's point of view. I know I don't consider myself to have “THE” answer, I don't think there is one. I think the right choice for every fire is a meaningful size-up and a decision based on that information with your resources, crew, and objective in mind.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts and I hope everyone will continue to come back and offer their thoughts and insights on all the topics we discuss here.

-Nick

I agree with the majority here. The small line was more than reasonable. This fire was clearly ventilation limited. The heat release rate was restricted by the volume of oxygen available inside the fire room, couple this with the need/ability to extinguish each room and then move to the next the maneuverability of the line is key.

If this same “size” fire was placed in a large commercial building it may not be ventilation limited. At that point the ability to prevent the large mass of unburned smoke above the attack team from igniting is the most important aspect of the hoseline selected. The large uncompartmented nature of many commercial occupancies also permits the use of larger lines which do not need to be maneuvered toward the seat due to stream reach.

We should lay the line which can combat both the heat release rate encountered and reasonably expected if the smoke “lights up”.

Tommy

In our department we have seen some staffing reductions that have caused us to make decisions between interior support (primary serach), vertical ventilation, or a back-up attack line. If staffing problems are causing you to choose a smaller line for the first line, shouldn't we assume that there would be no back-up line staffed for some time? I would still choose the line that's going to put the fire out (even if it is our pre-connected 2.5 line). Assume that your back-up line might not get there, and plan for the worse. Thanks for the chance to give feedback.

In our department we have seen some staffing reductions that have caused us to make decisions between interior support (primary serach), vertical ventilation, or a back-up attack line. If staffing problems are causing you to choose a smaller line for the first line, shouldn't we assume that there would be no back-up line staffed for some time? I would still choose the line that's going to put the fire out (even if it is our pre-connected 2.5 line). Assume that your back-up line might not get there, and plan for the worse. Thanks for the chance to give feedback.

There are some very interesting thoughts being posted here, I personally feel that small fire small water big fire big water is a pretty good theory to go with. That being said we need to have firefighters that are experienced in fire attack and who know what they can and can not do with the lines and manpower available. It seems that lately I've been reading a lot of posts on this and other sites where the poster is saying that we have no business entering and attacking fully involved structures. I agree with this whole heartedly, the question is what is considered a fully involved structure. On a lot of the videos out there we are unable to get a 360 of the building and just because you have a large body of fire blowing out of a few windows does not mean that the building is fully involved. I have been a firefighter(both career and volunteer) since 1978 and have seen more than one fire that I classified as a real oh shitter when I got off the rig but when I looked at the building from a different angle I realized that it was really only a room (or two) and contents fire. With the manpower shortages that all departments are facing now a days I would say that the 1.75″ line is probably the proper choice for the bulk of the fire that we encounter. It's fairly easy to move and allows us to get a fair amount of water on the fire quickly. Go ahead and put one of the new style foam additives into the on board tank of the engine coupled with positive pressure attack stratagies and an experienced crew can put out a lot of fire. The one time that I would want to see a 2.5″ as the lead line would be basement or below grade fires.

There are some very interesting thoughts being posted here, I personally feel that small fire small water big fire big water is a pretty good theory to go with. That being said we need to have firefighters that are experienced in fire attack and who know what they can and can not do with the lines and manpower available. It seems that lately I've been reading a lot of posts on this and other sites where the poster is saying that we have no business entering and attacking fully involved structures. I agree with this whole heartedly, the question is what is considered a fully involved structure. On a lot of the videos out there we are unable to get a 360 of the building and just because you have a large body of fire blowing out of a few windows does not mean that the building is fully involved. I have been a firefighter(both career and volunteer) since 1978 and have seen more than one fire that I classified as a real oh shitter when I got off the rig but when I looked at the building from a different angle I realized that it was really only a room (or two) and contents fire. With the manpower shortages that all departments are facing now a days I would say that the 1.75″ line is probably the proper choice for the bulk of the fire that we encounter. It's fairly easy to move and allows us to get a fair amount of water on the fire quickly. Go ahead and put one of the new style foam additives into the on board tank of the engine coupled with positive pressure attack stratagies and an experienced crew can put out a lot of fire. The one time that I would want to see a 2.5″ as the lead line would be basement or below grade fires.

There are some very interesting thoughts being posted here, I personally feel that small fire small water big fire big water is a pretty good theory to go with. That being said we need to have firefighters that are experienced in fire attack and who know what they can and can not do with the lines and manpower available. It seems that lately I've been reading a lot of posts on this and other sites where the poster is saying that we have no business entering and attacking fully involved structures. I agree with this whole heartedly, the question is what is considered a fully involved structure. On a lot of the videos out there we are unable to get a 360 of the building and just because you have a large body of fire blowing out of a few windows does not mean that the building is fully involved. I have been a firefighter(both career and volunteer) since 1978 and have seen more than one fire that I classified as a real oh shitter when I got off the rig but when I looked at the building from a different angle I realized that it was really only a room (or two) and contents fire. With the manpower shortages that all departments are facing now a days I would say that the 1.75″ line is probably the proper choice for the bulk of the fire that we encounter. It's fairly easy to move and allows us to get a fair amount of water on the fire quickly. Go ahead and put one of the new style foam additives into the on board tank of the engine coupled with positive pressure attack stratagies and an experienced crew can put out a lot of fire. The one time that I would want to see a 2.5″ as the lead line would be basement or below grade fires.